philosophy meta-forum

Fighting fire with fire, babies and bath water

Sir

8 day(s) ago

I started reading this forum because it offered a fresh (and gloriously dank) perspective on many issues in analytic philosophy.

However, I'm starting to think it's dominated by Christians.

"At a national level, they managed to implement a grotesque, intrusive sexual totalitarianism that dictates how even long-time sex-partners must have sex. They've reclassified ordinary sex as rape at universities and elsewhere"

That kind of comment is as transparent as muck.

Why is this a problem? Because 'conservative' political/meta-political position, when originating from people with drastic metaphysical commitments that feed into their normative comments, are about as objective (and so as endearing, intellectually) as SJWs themselves.

I want my conservative politics to come from people who are motivated by what is best for the whole, not what is best according to book(s) written by Semites who hated romans 2000 years ago.

Zhuang

I'm not a Christian and I'm not a conservative--or at least I've never been until recently. But apparently now if you are pro-free-expression, think there's a large private sphere into which politics and government should not intrude, and think that scientific and philosophical inquiry should be apolitical, you're conservative. If so, then I guess I'm conservative. But I find this sudden change of classification baffling since my position hasn't change.

What is it you deny in what you quote above? You can only fail to understand it if you simply aren't paying attention to what's been happening at universities. How could you possibly be unfamiliar with "affirmative consent" laws? You'd have to have your head in the sand. (Or somewhere else...) You realize that "affirmative consent" policies were implemented as policy at something like 1000 colleges, yes? You understand that this is an extremely intrusive law that tells adults how they are permitted to have sex? And that it is insane? According to that standard, I've never even had consensual sex with my *wife*... (Incidentally, I asked her once what she'd do if I started asking for consent at every point, every time. Her answer: "break up with you.")

Are you equally unfamiliar with Title IX madness and its consequences for due process at universities?

Don't blame me for your superhuman cluelessness.

Mikhail

8 day(s) ago

At the very least, please prove me wrong.

Are there any/many 'secular' (in the non-pozzed sense of this word) people on here who aren't leftists?

If not, you can all go and get farked.

Zhuang

Not sure I'd call myself "secular," but most people would definitely call me an atheist (my roughly-pagan sense of the sacred notwithstanding). I'm sure as hell not a believer in any organized or monotheistic religion, and I think leftism is cancer. Things have changed so much in the past few years that now when I hear someone described as a conservative Christian I think to myself: "Okay, I might be able to talk to this guy." So if "secular" just means being personally non-religious, and doesn't entail any ultimate commitment to secular liberalism in politics, you can count me as a secular person who is not a leftist.

Adolf

8 day(s) ago

The “distortion” here involves the mixing together separate issues and weaving conspiracy theories out of them. Sir’s post has this flavor too. It helps no one.

Pasquale

Is it a conspiracy theory to notice the obvious fact that the postmodern left is amassing power in our social institutions and appears hell-bent to acquire complete control and to destroy anyone who gets in their way? Or is it a conspiracy theory to notice that the postmodern left is anti-rationalist, anti-science, anti-male, anti-Western, and anti-philosophical?

Hans

The "postmodern left" is a shifting and rhetorical pseudo-concept that functions mainly emotively: a term of abuse, an object for two-minutes hate, something to simultaneously look down on (especially as effeminate) and fear (as pervasive and powerful).

Philippa

Bingo

Lewis

8 day(s) ago

Why should I care about any of this? Because my next colleague will be a trans woman interested in SJW topics instead of someone more like my senior colleagues who had a narrow sense of what philosophy is and how to do it?

This is not an important decision for me.

Paracelsus

This is where you're wrong. First, because this philosophy-job-market thing is a zero-sum game. The trans SJW will replace a decent philosopher, thus creating both an injustice and loss for philosophy for giving a job to an undeserving person and not giving a job to a deserving. Second, even if she didn't replace someone else, it would still be a loss for philosophy for there to be yet another incompetent and politicized activist professor. I shouldn't have to tell you that SJW activism is not a serious province of philosophy but in light of your indifference that's apparently called for. (And may I say, yet another leftist will enter the profession, as these folks are always on the left. Though, of course, even just striving equality of outcome or equal representation is a terrible idea.)

Derek

8 day(s) ago

This is not an important decision for me. And I think I’m not alone, as a mid career run of the mill philosopher who wants to enjoy teaching and writing without making everyday into some battle in a confusing war between religious zealots or people who mourn the downfall of analytic philosophy and SJWs. Not everyone needs to have a side in this. Some of us might just get away with sitting quietly in the middle, and I don’t think this has anything to do with cowardice

Paracelsus

If you think that you'll be left alone to do as you please with an SJW colony in your department, you are naive. It just takes one. Next thing you know you'll be forced into mandatory implicit bias training like the guy at the end of A Clockwork Orange.

You traditional folks really do not get that neutrality is not an option in this. It doesn't matter what YOU want, it matters what THEY will demand and what the spineless administrators will cave on.

If you're lucky enough not to be afflicted by this, great. Good for you. Lots of us won't have that option. And since it "doesn't affect you" that these people are getting hired (great Ayn Rand quote, btw), you're find with this happening.

Call it confused or distorted or whatever you like. I'm sure Rebecca Tuvel thought the same thing before the rabid dog bit her.

Mikhail

8 day(s) ago

The “distortion” here involves the mixing together separate issues and weaving conspiracy theories out of them. Sir’s post has this flavor too. It helps no one.

Pasquale

Is it a conspiracy theory to notice the obvious fact that the postmodern left is amassing power in our social institutions and appears hell-bent to acquire complete control and to destroy anyone who gets in their way? Or is it a conspiracy theory to notice that the postmodern left is anti-rationalist, anti-science, anti-male, anti-Western, and anti-philosophical?

Hans

The "postmodern left" is a shifting and rhetorical pseudo-concept that functions mainly emotively: a term of abuse, an object for two-minutes hate, something to simultaneously look down on (especially as effeminate) and fear (as pervasive and powerful).

Philippa

Bingo

Adolf

It's beyond me how anyone can hold this view, though I know a lot of people do. I understand that "postmodern Left," "cultural Marxism," etc. are not strictly defined, and probably cannot be, but if you can't see what these terms are gesturing at, you either have your head in the sand or else you're part of the problem being gestured at. I understand the frustration some people have about this, which I also often feel when leftists invoke the "alt-right," which is a very fuzzy umbrella term for almost everyone the radical left doesn't like. But we know what is being gestured at with the term "alt-right," even if no one who is part of it admits to being part of it, and even if for rhetorical reasons the same people often express perplexity about the referent of the term. Anyone who asks "What is the alt-right?" at this point is either very ignorant or just dishonest, and the same applies to the question "What is the postmodern Left?" The insistence on a strict definition that picks out every instance of postmodern Leftism and no instances of anything that's not postmodern Leftism is just dishonest. Almost no term can be defined with that degree of precision, and I struggle to think of a single term used in political discourse that can be.

Huai

8 day(s) ago

The "postmodern left" is a shifting and rhetorical pseudo-concept that functions mainly emotively: a term of abuse, an object for two-minutes hate, something to simultaneously look down on (especially as effeminate) and fear (as pervasive and powerful).

Philippa

Bullshit--as others have already noted.

The relevant part of the left whines about *whatever* people call them--unless it's their own preferred misnomer, "social justice"(ists?)

They whined about "political correctness," deploying the same bullshit argument: "It's vague!" Uh...like every other term in politics, you mean? They whine about "cultural Marxism." Now you're whining about "postmodern left."

You know very well what people are talking about: that repulsive stew of anti-liberal politics and third-rate (mostly) French literary theory that dominates the humanities and weaker social sciences, and that's taking over in philosophy.

Mikhail

8 day(s) ago

Huai: They also like to call themselves "progressives," which might be translated as "those who are on the right side of history," based of course on some sort of Marxist theory of history. "Social justice" is what they strive for, "progressives" is what they are, in their usual lingo.

Adolf

8 day(s) ago

Nothing says “I’m not a conspiracy theorist” like portraying everyone who disagrees with you politically as part of a giant plot to usurp your place in society and destroy you.

Uriel

8 day(s) ago

How could you possibly be unfamiliar with "affirmative consent" laws? You'd have to have your head in the sand. (Or somewhere else...) You realize that "affirmative consent" policies were implemented as policy at something like 1000 colleges, yes? You understand that this is an extremely intrusive law that tells adults how they are permitted to have sex? And that it is insane? According to that standard, I've never even had consensual sex with my *wife*... (Incidentally, I asked her once what she'd do if I started asking for consent at every point, every time. Her answer: "break up with you.")

Ok, well it was said in the post I was responding to that "At a national level, they managed to implement a grotesque, intrusive sexual totalitarianism that dictates how even long-time sex-partners must have sex. They've reclassified ordinary sex as rape at universities and elsewhere".

This made is sound like federal law. I agree affirmative consent is ridiculous on college campuses.

Lev

8 day(s) ago

Nothing says “I’m not a conspiracy theorist” like portraying everyone who disagrees with you politically as part of a giant plot to usurp your place in society and destroy you.

Adolf

When you feel the urge to write stupid things, why not see about hiring a billboard that says "I don't know dick about history before 1965!"

That will save everyone the trouble of dealing with a dipshit who thinks that bare facts about social dynamics and inter group conflicts are conspiracy theories.

You're the kind of mark that really thinks Putin influenced the US election while sniping at far more plausible hypotheses as conspiracy theories.

Johann

8 day(s) ago

The “distortion” here involves the mixing together separate issues and weaving conspiracy theories out of them. Sir’s post has this flavor too. It helps no one.

Pasquale

Is it a conspiracy theory to notice the obvious fact that the postmodern left is amassing power in our social institutions and appears hell-bent to acquire complete control and to destroy anyone who gets in their way? Or is it a conspiracy theory to notice that the postmodern left is anti-rationalist, anti-science, anti-male, anti-Western, and anti-philosophical?

Hans

The "postmodern left" is a shifting and rhetorical pseudo-concept that functions mainly emotively: a term of abuse, an object for two-minutes hate, something to simultaneously look down on (especially as effeminate) and fear (as pervasive and powerful).

Philippa

The 'postmodern' left comprises the SJWs, the social constructivists, and the other so-called 'progressives' who are also known as the Regressive Left. Your denial that this phenomenon is taking place at an astonishing speed and that it is consuming our civilization constitutes a barefaced lie.

Johann

8 day(s) ago

Nothing says “I’m not a conspiracy theorist” like portraying everyone who disagrees with you politically as part of a giant plot to usurp your place in society and destroy you.

Adolf

Rand Paul, Paul Ryan, Theresa May and the Koch brothers all disagree with me politically but they aren't a part of the giant societal phenomenon that we call the postmodern left and you sheepishly call a 'conspiracy theory'.

Philolaus

8 day(s) ago

One thing I don’t get is why people think the postmodern left has anything to do with Marxism, a philosophy predicated on a realist materialist metaphysics.

Fritz

8 day(s) ago

"Civilization’s going to pieces," broke out Tom violently. "I’ve gotten to be a terrible pessimist about things. Have you read "The Rise of the Colored Empires’ by this man Goddard?"

"Why no," I answered, rather surprised by his tone."

"Well, it’s a fine book, and everybody ought to read it. The idea is if we don’t look out the white race will be — will be utterly submerged. It’s all scientific stuff; it’s been proved."

"Tom’s getting very profound," said Daisy, with an expression of unthoughtful sadness. "He reads deep books with long words in them. What was that word we — "

"Well these books are all scientific," insisted Tom, glancing at her impatiently. "This fellow has worked out the whole thing. It’s up to us, who are the dominant race, to watch out or these other races will have control of things."

"We’ve got to beat them down," whispered Daisy, winking ferociously toward the fervent sun.

"You ought to live in California —" began Miss Baker, but Tom interrupted her by shifting heavily in his chair.

"This idea is that we’re Nordics. I am, and you are, and you are and —" After an infinitesimal hesitation he included Daisy with a slight nod, and she winked at me again. " — And we’ve produced all the things that go to make civilization — oh, science and art, and all that. Do you see?"

There was something pathetic in his concentration, as if his complacency, more acute than of old, was not enough to him any more.

Yohanan

8 day(s) ago

To understand this you have to look at the history or Marxism. After WW1 when instead of taking the perfect opportunity to rebel the proletariat marched off to war whistling patriotic songs, Marxists scratched their heads in disbelief. The solution, for them, was either to throw away Marxism or tweak it. So, not wishing to give up the goose, they tweaked it. The cultural 'superstructure' is not wholly subservient to the economic 'base'. Instead, the proletariat can suffer from 'false consciousness': IDEAS which stop the working class from seizing their moment in history and taking control of the means of production. Gramsci et al opened the doors for a form of Marxist in which culture possesses more autonomy. Culture was for the first time seen as prime force in itself. Postmodernism is OBSESSED with culture: cultural analysis and deconstruction. It is predicated on the idea that culture is the focus, not economics. More precisely, actually, it is predicated on the idea that the base/superstructure dichotomy is no longer tenable because the cultural has BECOME the economic. No longer are we making goods. Instead, we are buying and selling information: i.e. representations. Instead of a material reality (the economy) underpinning the ebb and flow of representation, there is nothing BUT representation. Enter relativism et al. Enter the decline of the Western academy.

Yohanan

8 day(s) ago

That was a reply to Philolaus.

SPELL CHECK IS FOR PROLES

Yohanan

8 day(s) ago

A great book on all this is the intellectual HERETIC Jew Paul Gottfried's 'The Strange Death of Marxism':

https://www.amazon.com/Strange-Death-Marxism-European-Millennium/dp/0826215971

You might also check out talks by Jonathan Bowden on the new left and Frankfurt School:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J92f2S3E0S8

Yohanan

8 day(s) ago

In short: In the early days of Marxism the economy was seen as the prime mover of society and thus the arena of political struggle. However, after a while culture (the realm of representation) was seen as equally important. Then finally, the dichotomy between culture and economics was thought to collapse, such that it's all culture. Hence, Marxists shifted their obsession with economics and class to the real of representation.

Hu

8 day(s) ago

Political correctness is getting out of hand in the academy now somehow equates to society being co-opted by the radical left? I don’t know if you notice who is in the White House, how our Supreme Court has voted over the past several decades, etc., but name a social institution other than the universities where where leftists reign or whatever it is you are on about.

Hu

8 day(s) ago

Nothing says “I’m not a conspiracy theorist” like portraying everyone who disagrees with you politically as part of a giant plot to usurp your place in society and destroy you.

Adolf

When you feel the urge to write stupid things, why not see about hiring a billboard that says "I don't know dick about history before 1965!"

That will save everyone the trouble of dealing with a dipshit who thinks that bare facts about social dynamics and inter group conflicts are conspiracy theories.

You're the kind of mark that really thinks Putin influenced the US election while sniping at far more plausible hypotheses as conspiracy theories.

Lev

Cute. Calls me ignorant of history before 1965. Thinks the Black Lives Matter movement arose because of a vast liberal conspiracy and not because of a materially documented history of racist policing in the US combined with the invention/ adoption of cell phone cameras.

Yohanan

8 day(s) ago

but name a social institution other than the universities where where leftists reign or whatever it is you are on about.

Government/public schools, libraries, HR departments, the media, the media, the media, the music industry, journalism, the media, the movie industry, star wars, your brain.

Hu

8 day(s) ago

but name a social institution other than the universities where where leftists reign or whatever it is you are on about.

Government/public schools, libraries, HR departments, the media, the media, the media, the music industry, journalism, the media, the movie industry, star wars, your brain.

Yohanan

I’ll give you half points for Hollywood. The rest is drivel.

Hu

7 day(s) ago

The right: The academy is in intellectual decline and no one deserves a place in the highest echelons of learning but me.

Also the right: I’ve been fed a steady diet of conspiracy theories wholly disconnected from reality and I don’t have the critical thinking skills to sort it out.

Hu

7 day(s) ago

^ This this blog in a nutshell

Calcidius

7 day(s) ago

One thing I don’t get is why people think the postmodern left has anything to do with Marxism, a philosophy predicated on a realist materialist metaphysics.

Philolaus

The so-called Marxists of today are usually constructivists and pretend that everything is ideology. Is the Frankfurt school predicated on a realist materialist metaphysics?

Calcidius

7 day(s) ago

Political correctness is getting out of hand in the academy now somehow equates to society being co-opted by the radical left?

Hu

Yes. They control pre-university education. They control the mainstream media. They control Hollywood. They control the corporations (they control the ideology of the corporations but not all of their money). They have enormous influence and/or control in the governments of Canada, Australia, Sweden, the UK, etc.

Nathaniel

7 day(s) ago

but name a social institution other than the universities where where leftists reign or whatever it is you are on about.

Government/public schools, libraries, HR departments, the media, the media, the media, the music industry, journalism, the media, the movie industry, star wars, your brain.

Yohanan

I’ll give you half points for Hollywood. The rest is drivel.

Hu

You must be an ignorant idiot who lives under a rock if you think so.

Nathaniel

7 day(s) ago

Pre-schools are branding children as trans but you don't think the radical left has anything to do with it.

The largest investment management company in the world (Blackrock) threatens to divest from companies that don't implement progressive leftist values, but the radical left (or kowtowing to it) has nothing to do with it.

90% of the media is waging perpetual, post- truth war against the right-wing government of the US but that sure can't be because they're radical leftists.

inb4 'but they're not communists' Yes, but communists aren't the only kind of radical leftists. They are pro-capitalist radical progressive SJWs.

Google publicly fires an employee for internally bringing up scientific research that puts progressive ideology in doubt. But that has nothing to do with the radical left.

Apple's CEO publicly condemns the employee fired at Google: once again, no radical leftism to see here.

Microsoft has been firing people who oppose gender quotas for decades. But it sure can't be that the corporations are aligned with the radical left.

Governments all over most of Europe pretending that third-world immigration is unavoidable and unequivocally desirable. But that's not radical leftism of course.

Police forces in the UK too scared to do anything about enormous-scale child rape by Muslims. But that's not because they're afraid of the radical leftists who would call them racists.

How long do you want me to continue?

Wonhyo

7 day(s) ago

^ Thanks for proving my point RE conspiracy theories. Yes, all these things are connected by a giant leftist conspiracy. YAWN.

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